Labor, Unity, & The Power of Flight Attendants: A Conversation With Sara Nelson

This week, we’re beyond thrilled to welcome Sara Nelson, International President of the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA-CWA), into the studio. From wrangling a six-foot-seven passenger mid-flight to wrangling billion-dollar contracts at the bargaining table, Sara brings stories, laughs, and powerful truths about the airline industry you won’t hear anywhere else.

We talk about her nearly 30-year career, the moments that lit her fire for union advocacy, and why solidarity is the most important tool we have as flight attendants. You’ll hear about industry changes that impact your flying experience (and ours), how collective action has led to real wins like 10 hours minimum rest, and why flight attendants are so much more than “the girls in the back.” Buckle up – this one’s part hilarious, part jaw-dropping, and 100% inspiring.

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] Welcome aboard & introducing the legendary Sara Nelson
[1:56] Sara’s wildest passenger story – a Vegas all-nighter gone very wrong
[7:52] The moments of solidarity that keep us flying
[8:30] How a snowy day, a phone call, and a pension got Sara into aviation
[14:00] Why flight attendants show up for each other in ways no one else can
[20:29] Early union work, strike lines, and becoming a loud voice for change
[24:36] 9/11, personal loss, and the fight against corporate greed
[29:09] What we wish passengers knew about our jobs today
[34:46] “We are the union” – how every FA can create change
[36:22] From the jumpseat to Congress: Sara’s unexpected path to leadership
[38:30] Building power across all unions – from baristas to auto workers
[43:41] The difference between power and control (and who really has it)
[49:30] Sara’s proudest win: the long fight for 10 hours minimum rest
[53:37] Advice to every new hire flight attendant
[55:53] Why that union pin matters more than you think
[56:59] Lightning round – layovers, snacks, playlists, and dream destinations

Links and Resources:

Sara’s Instagram: @flyingwithsara 

Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL-CIO: www.afacwa.org/ 

Transcript

Andrew: 0:00

You ever wondered what your flight attendants are really talking about behind the galley curtain? Welcome to Two guys on a plane. Your go to podcast for an insider look at flight attendant life. We're your hosts, rich and Drew and we're here to tell you what really goes on at 35,000 feet. So sit back, relax. We're ready for takeoff. Welcome back to two guys on a plane. We are so excited for today's episode in studio with us, we have a very special guest. Most of you are probably very familiar with this person. She has been a flight attendant for almost 30 years. She is currently the international president for the Association of flight attendants, representing 55,000 flight attendants at what 20 airlines. I believe New York Times has called her America's most powerful flight attendant. She is a fearless labor leader, and we are so excited to have her in studio with us today. Please welcome Sarah Nelson, welcome Sarah. Thank you. Thank you so

Sara Nelson: 0:59

much. Andrew. No, I'm happy to be here because, you know, every single day when I need to pick me up, two guys on a plane comes into my VI, all I do is open that up and I get my little laugh. And yes, you're right, I don't usually comment because it probably is something sort of slightly inappropriate, but super funny. And thank you. And so I'm happy to

Andrew: 1:19

comment, but you can start texting us what your comment would be, because I feel like I need to giggle from you. We will not use it against you. We promise. We are loyal followers. Well, Sarah, we normally do an icebreaker. So we'll start by saying thank you so much for being here. We appreciate your time and traveling to be with us today. We generally start each episode talking about trips we've worked recently, or some sort of memorable passenger moment we have. So I guess that's our question for you. Is there over 30 years? Is there like a passenger or crew or some memorable airplane moment that, like stands out to you? Oh

Sara Nelson: 1:56

my gosh, Whenever someone asks me this, I can't, of course, we always go to the negative. I know it's hard, so I can't help but think about this like wild flight that I had. We loved one. It was a Vegas all nighter, Chicago.

Andrew: 2:12

Honestly Say no more. We all know what we're in for.

Sara Nelson: 2:16

And I was working with two flight attendants who it was their first week on the job. Okay, so we're on 37 so I'm working out front, and they're both working in the back. So the plane was completely full, and there were families, and I don't know, there was, like, a lot of mature women who clearly went for their gambling weekend in Vegas or something. I don't know. Anyway, it was just like, not the typical mix. It was all families and like, sort of, you know, on the more mature side, women who were fairly slight in their build, and except for this one guy who came on the plane, and he was maybe six, seven, around 330 and I knew there was something a little off. But you know, when there's a when there's a full flight, like you don't, you don't have that much time to interact, right? So right away, after we got up in the air, the flight attendants from the back call me and say, someone's smoking in the bathroom. And then it progressed. I mean, the story could go on forever, because it's this whole saga, but I had to keep calling the pilots and saying, Hey, we have a problem. We have a problem. This guy. I mean, he smoked in the bathroom, first of all, and then he spread soap all over the bathroom. Oh, no, I might be getting this out of order. He urinated all over the bathroom with the door open. And then I think he spread soap everywhere to try to help, I don't know. And then he was trying to open the airplane door. So this was, now I'm spending my entire time just reporting to the flight deck and saying, what's going on, because we have to decide, like, you know, does it get to a point where you got to divert, like, sort of control? Yeah,

Andrew: 3:51

it sounds like we're getting close to that.

Sara Nelson: 3:54

So, so I didn't even have time, really to go back there. I mean, clearly he was on something, and we didn't have a chance to see that or, you know, we didn't have, we didn't have experienced eyes on it before the flight. To keep him off the flight. I finally go back to check out this situation. And as I'm going back, I'm looking for my helper passengers. And there was no one. It was families and, like, these smaller

Andrew: 4:17

women, and where's my backup for this six, seven guy? Yeah.

Sara Nelson: 4:20

And so, you know, before I became a flight attendant, I trained to be a teacher. So I was like, Well, I'm just gonna have to handle it. And after he tried to open the airplane door, like that was kind of the end of it, the pilots were like, Yeah, we may have to think about diverting, and we're looking at Des Moines. So I went back there and I said, I said, you and when I got back there, now he's doing a strip tease for the family

Andrew: 4:41

in the aisles. That's exactly what you want. You need, yes.

Sara Nelson: 4:46

So I said, Hey, you in like my strongest teacher voice, and I said, You need to sit down, keep your hands to yourself, and you have a decision to make. We you are going off this airplane in handcuffs. You. You can either do it in Chicago, or if you touch one more person or get up out of your seat, you're gonna do it in Des Moines. Des Moines, you're going to jail in Des Moines. And I don't know, he just was like, okay, and he sat down and sat there quietly for the rest of the flight. We had everybody stay in their seats. When we got to Chicago, the police came on, went to the back, put him in handcuffs, walked him out. And, you know, I'll never forget that, but the two flight attendants resigned the next week. That

Andrew: 5:28

was gonna be my next question is, where are they now? They're no longer flying here. You set a precedence where they're just wandering through airplanes being like, you sit down or they resign. So that's, I mean, that's so funny this job. I mean, it's not for everybody. That's for sure. No, no, no, not for the faint of heart. It's funny to me. And I think we all have that baby. I really, I don't think yours is an isolated incident. Yeah, I had him, that same guy, three weeks ago.

Sara Nelson: 5:55

Like, you know what? Though, since that time, I really have to think about this, because the truth of the matter is, actually one great thing about this job is we do see all of humanity. Yes, we love people. We do. We love to travel. We do. Really, do? We really do.

Andrew: 6:11

How long you've been flying when this Vegas incident happened,

Sara Nelson: 6:15

I think that was about five years. Okay,

Andrew: 6:17

yeah. So, yeah, five years. You're kind of alien. You're ready to go. So so take it back. You know, we to your very beginning of your flying career. And you know, we had you featured on our flight attendant Friday series, which we love, and we posted your story during covid, and people loved it. But for those who don't know your story, tell us how you got started in aviation. What first drew you to being a flight attendant, what made you stick with it. You know, to take us back to the beginning.

Sara Nelson: 6:43

Okay, all right, I'll try to do this really fast. I didn't know anything about aviation or flying. I mean, my family had taken trips, so I had exposure to that. In fact, I can remember when there was still smoking on planes flying to London with my family and like, just so disgusting by the time you get off the plane and barely being able to breathe while you're on the plane, God bless the flight attends. Who had to work in those conditions. But anyway, and are you in? Successfully fought that and got it out of our workplace, the first, the first group to take on big tobacco and win. It was a big deal. And I think about that all the time too, when we think we're we're kind of small at 55,000 but we're mighty. We're mighty. So anyway, I was studying to be a teacher and finishing up my student teaching, and right after that, I had a job lined up in St Louis for the following year as a teacher. But at the time, I was working for jobs, so I was doing all those things. I was really, really exhausted and thinking about setting up my teacher classroom. And my girlfriend had become a flight attendant, sort of on a lark. At the end of college. She was my best friend in college. Chloe is her name, and she called me. She got an interview with United at the end of our college career, and we laughed about it, how she was only going to do this for a couple of years, how funny it was.

Andrew: 7:55

You know, wasn't that everyone's goal, right? Yeah.

Sara Nelson: 7:59

And so she calls me. She calls me on this snowy day. I'll never forget it in St Louis. I was just miserable, and it was working like crazy, right? I had just gotten my first student loan bill that day, and I'm thinking, like, how am I gonna make ends meet? And it was just pretty miserable. And she said, Hi, I'm coming from Miami Beach and with my toes in the sand, and United Airlines is paying for me to be here. La, la, la. And I was like, shut up. And so after she got done rousing me, she was like, No, this job is no joke. And she she told me about the pay, which, at the time, was more than my first year teacher pay was going to be. She told me about the health care that had been negotiated by women, so it actually covered women's issues in healthcare. She told me about the flexibility on the job, and she told me about the pension, and at 23 like working for jobs and trying to figure out how I was gonna make it all work, I'm like a pension that you can take at age 50. That sounds funny, yeah, right. It's literally, it's an odd thing, but the pension is what got me in my car the next day to go to Chicago to interview with United Airlines, and then the rest of the story, frankly, and she was talking about the flight attendant contract, of course, like we wouldn't have those things if our union hadn't been negotiating for 60 years at that point. And so I got based in Boston, and I got an apartment with seven of my classmates. What everybody does when they start out because you can't afford to live, particularly in a city like Boston, I know Yes. And so I started flying, and they all got their first paychecks. And I was like, yes, because my parents were not talking to me, because they had just helped me go to this liberal arts school that was really expensive, and they were like, you're becoming a flight show.

Andrew: 9:43

What's that about your parents still asking you when you'll get a real job too? You know what? They

Sara Nelson: 9:48

stopped asking that six months later, when they get the flight benefits. They flew all over the world. I'll see how that works. But anyway, so I was not asking them for any money, and my bank account was dwindling from the credit union line. Loan that I had gotten, and I had $12 in my bank account, and I went into the office to ask somebody if they could help me with it, and they said, Oh, you get paychecks at different times for different reasons. We'll show you again. It next time and on probation. I'm screaming in my head, but I'm remembering, like, if there's a hair out of place, they can let you go. So I mind my P's and Q's and try to get by. I got to the next paycheck period on a lot of top ramen. And that day, as I was waiting for the paycheck to drop, I jump seated to Chicago and back so they can eat some more plain food. This is back when we serve it. And

Unknown: 10:33

so and relatable. Yeah.

Sara Nelson: 10:36

And so I landed back at noon and checked my bank account, and now my bank account is zero. And so I went down into office and said, somebody's got to help me. And I started to get some of the same rigmarole. And it was the first time in my life that I really understood what it meant to be a number in an HR file where nobody cares about you. And so I, you know, I rent was due the next day. My roommates were counting on me. I did not know how I was going to eat that day. I just, you know, I started to cry and get a little more upset, upset than someone on probation should, and I have this tap on the shoulder, and I turn around, there was someone standing there, another flight attendant. I'll never forget, she was just a line flight attendant. She looked a lot like me. I remember her AFA pin above her wings, and she wrote me a check for $800 and she said, number one, you take care of yourself. And number two, call our union. That's amazing. I did call our union. I had my paycheck the very next day. But I always tell everyone that I learned everything I needed to know about our union in that moment for sure, because as flight attendants, there's very few people that are better at taking care of other people, and through our union, we can be organized about that and get the most out of it, totally. So the union called me the next day, and they said, so we hope to would you like to help out? And I didn't know people said, No. I also was like, so honored for me to help. You know, I'm like, I'll do the new hire presentations. This shouldn't happen to anyone. It turns out actually a strong sense of justice and a loud mouth will carry you very far, I believe. And so, so that's how I got involved. That's, that's really the story. And there's, there's a lot of other stories along the way, but, yeah, that's what set it off.

Andrew: 12:12

Okay, that's amazing. That's cool. I love flight attendants for that very reason, though. Like, it really is the most beautiful and coolest thing that these people you don't know just automatically show up for you when you need the most and like in ways that you don't even know that you need. You know it's like flight attends are just find a way to anticipate what someone's going through and what they need. And it's beautiful the way people

Sara Nelson: 12:37

come for each other. They may not remember your name, but they will remember in all of your stories,

Andrew: 12:41

all of your details, all of your insane details, no idea what your name is, though, an

Unknown: 12:46

insightful response for you. So funny. I'm

Andrew: 12:51

still back to this. I flew to Chicago to eat because when I was a new hire, I flew to Tokyo so I could sleep, because it was like four, you're between shifts. And I flew to not Tokyo, Okinawa. I flew to Japan because I got a fly flat. And so you fly for a free hotel. Basically, you got three meals and a hotel both directions. This, these kind of stories just fascinate and break my heart, that people really and they're still doing it. We're still doing these things. Yes,

Sara Nelson: 13:23

yes. Flight attendants are still doing it. And you sort of wonder, like, what makes you do this? Like, I was talking to a flight, I won't say the carrier, but I was, I was talking to a flight attendant that's sort of a bottom feeder in the industry. And, you know, she was so she was incredible, she I was just watching her do her job, and she was just flawless, graceful, personified. And I, and I said to her, and like, how long have you been flying? She's like, 18 months. Oh and, and I said, oh and, how is it? Because I knew what she was making, right? No. And I knew, I knew the kind of non flexibility that she had, and all of the things, and because we were in a big contract fight at the time, right and, and she said, you know, she said, I've done other jobs making even maybe a little bit more than I'm making right now, but the difference is that when I come to work and I have these stripes on my uniform, people treat me with respect, and they've not treat me with respect in the retail job that I had, or in the service job that I had, and and so I think flight attendants take a lot of pride in the fact that, I mean, the truth is, we're aviation first responders. We have a really serious safety job. We're really serious part of aviation. We've done a lot to raise the profile of flight attendants so we can gain that respect from the from the passengers, and I think that that people take pride in that. But what our union needs to do is to make sure that airlines don't take advantage of the pride that we take in our jobs, because

Andrew: 14:53

they will Yes, and they do a lot. Unfortunately, they know that we're give. The will give. They know that we take pride in what we do. They know we want. To offer a good product. They know that we're a creative sort who will make things

Sara Nelson: 15:05

happen. And they're very quick to say, whenever we have hiring, you know, there's lines around the back of people who are, yeah, maybe

Andrew: 15:13

not. Maybe gaslighting them into thinking it's more glamorous than it is.

Sara Nelson: 15:17

Just saying, I love the old joke at the 30 year flight attendant who's retiring, and she says, you know, or she doesn't say anything on the PA, she gets down on her hands and knees, and she crawls all the way to the back of the plane, and then she gets on the PA, and she says, for the passengers who are wondering what I was doing on my hands and knees, she said, Well, today is my last day, and I'm retiring, and I was just looking for the fucking glamor they promised me when they hired me for

Andrew: 15:42

this job. I've never heard this story ever, and I will use it forever from now on, because it's so true. Yeah. I mean, it has its moments, like your I think about your friend. You know, I'm in Miami Beach, and I have my toes in the sand and I'm having the best day ever. Those moments are beautiful, but they do definitely come with some work and fall, yes,

Sara Nelson: 16:03

and you know. And the other thing that I will just say, though, is that some of my worst trips, my mom always says, you know, the worst disasters make the best stories later, but, but which is true, but also, if you like, you could have the worst flight. And if you

Andrew: 16:18

have a good crew, oh, my God, we talk about this all the time.

Sara Nelson: 16:22

It doesn't work because even play exactly because you let it

Andrew: 16:27

sit in the galley and you make a lifelong friend. And that was more important than serving a soda for 20 minutes talking about trips, since we're at the beginning, talking about your story, take us back right off of IOE, that first trip. Where were you What were you doing? Oh, where was your layover? Okay, so, how was your crew? Oh, my God, I remember this trip. So many questions about all,

Sara Nelson: 16:50

because I show up for work, and it was a really senior trip. So I was very, very lucky. My first leg was on a 727, I'll never forget that. Of course, it was with these two women who had been flying for like, 35 years. And obviously the third woman who had been flying for 35 years called in sick that day. That's why I got the trip. But they showed up and they were in an argument with the supervisor in the office about how the con how the trip was gonna go. I mean, I just stood there and waited, and waited, and it was this big conflict, and then one of them realized that maybe I would be a little off put by the conflict, and she pulls me aside, and she says, Listen, management thinks of us as their wives. Oh, and her voice was gravely, because we had just won the fight over smoking, and she had had secondhand smoke her whole life, but she said, management thinks of us as their wives or their mistresses, and in either case, they hold us in content. And I'm like, Woo, that's a lot 23 fresh out of company training. But then she said, your only place of worth is with your fellow flying partners, and if we stick together, there's nothing we can accomplish. And these two women taught me the tricks of the trade. They had their cellophane where they were putting the food into that for layers. They're on their layovers. They have their bottles where they were like, Yeah, every little trick, oh my god. This woman, like, she had everything in her bag. It was amazing. So we went, my first layover was in Denver, Denver. I and Denver was a brand new airport at the time, and, yeah, and so I remember that. And the other layover that I had on this three day trip was Portland, Oregon. And I'm from Oregon, so it's like, it just felt, yeah, it felt like having sense. Very cool.

Unknown: 18:31

That is cool, yes.

Andrew: 18:33

So you were talking about kind of how you got inspired to get more involved with the union, and what got you really moving?

Sara Nelson: 18:41

So the first thing I did was the new hire buddy program. And so I did all of the incoming orientations for people who were based in Boston. So I would, you know, put together, obviously, I would go over the contractual things that were immediately applicable to them to make sure they were getting what they needed. But also I would put together, like, you know, crash pads that they could call to get into other places that were good to stay, information about the city, how they get around, how the public transportation works, what the best doors were to go in to access everything, where you can get a cheap meal, where you can get happy hour, all that stuff. And so I did that, and then that led to doing communications locally in Boston. And then very soon we were in contract negotiations, and I was local strike chair. And by the time I was actually getting off probation, I was already the communications chair, and we were in contract negotiations, and I went from my probationary exit interview out onto the picket line and led cheers the rest of the day. And then I will just say this, we negotiated a contract a year later, after I started and had a TA that I thought stunk, and I worked really hard to get it voted down. So I was a big dissident in the Union when I started, like I was a very loud mouth and wanted things to change. And honestly, like, I still see things that need to change and fix everywhere. But what I learned. Learned in the process was that it was a group of women who had built this union, that it was incredibly democratic. Is just for flight attendants. It really puts the union in the members hands, and as long as everybody's participating, it works really well. It's just like democracy anywhere if you don't have participation, it doesn't work. But that's what got me involved and more engaged, and then people just kept asking me to do the next thing. And the next thing, I served as the communications chair at United Airlines for AFA for the years of the bankruptcy, and I got a firsthand seat to and let me just back up here for a second, because this was right after 911 and so I was a local officer in Boston when 911 happened, and flight 175 hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center. And you know the huddle will make friends on it. And you can picture that flight because it was the second flight to hit after American flight 11 had hit the North Tower 17 minutes earlier, and the so all the cameras were trained on that site. So I know the exact moment that Amy and Michael and Amy and Katherine and Al and Alicia and Robert and Mary, Ann and Jesus died, and they were amazing people. And what I didn't know as we're grieving the loss of them and the change in our job was that crisis capitalists were getting to work to redefine the value of a flight attendant, a pilot, a mechanic, a gate agent, any job that touched aviation that day, because they knew that this was going to be able to attack an industry that was heavily unionized and change it just like all the other industries had been changed to put more money into Wall Street's hands make us do more for less, and I got a firsthand seed to that in a very, very painful way, and so I still say all of their names every single day, because that's really what motivated me to get involved and to fight back. Because this isn't just about flight attendants, right? And it's not just about aviation, it's about labor across this country. And I always, you know, everybody has their own story, their own losses. They can think about they can picture their own faces, about why they fight. I tell people a lot of times, I tell women, especially, don't be afraid of your emotions. Your emotions are your superpower, because it means you're going to fight like hell for the people that you love. And as long as you can put that in check and and, and drive that towards that fight it, they're good, yeah, and, and we shouldn't be emotionless. That's ridiculous, and especially with what's going on against working people in the last 40 years, especially we it's time to stand up, fight, organize, get together and fight back against corporate

Andrew: 23:49

greed. Yeah, I completely agree. I think we put so much emphasis on, you know, Don't be emotional. And for, you know, men and women too. Like I remember growing up, and obviously I'm gay and was a little more effeminate. And I remember my mom being like, you know, grow a pair like, you know, man up, you're gonna get bullied. And it's like, I'm emotional. I feel things and in those harder moments of life, like leaning on your emotions and being able to be in touch with them gets you places. It gets you places. It motivates you, it drives you. It helps you find that reason for you know why you're why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah, we are criers. Yeah, we cry. I love it. I cry. But also, I mean, even as men, like we cry like I I get so passionate about something that, like Tears are coming. Like it just, it's what happens, yeah, particularly when it's so personal for you. Yeah. I mean, it's not like, I mean, everybody in all aviation was touched by 911 but there are people that work at United and American that were based in Boston or wherever planes took off from. Those are their friends. Yeah? You know, rich flew with and we've interviewed her for two guys for an article that we did on our plane. But Rich flew with someone who swapped out of a trip. Yeah? And like, to know that, to have that personal connection, like those things push you, particularly when you know evil is happening behind that, not just the grander scheme of things, but like, you're talking about the retirement being taken away, pensions taken away. Like, yeah, the evil that comes in the aftermath of that. It's really hard to stomach when you're grieving your friends,

Sara Nelson: 25:22

yeah. And people ask, you know, how do these people sleep at night? And I'll tell you, I had a group of retirees during the United Airlines bankruptcy come into the office, and we were fighting to save retiree health care at the time because United Airlines said, Oh, if you retire by the state, you can keep the old retiree health care. We're going to change retiree health care in the contract going forward. But if you retire by the state and then three months later, after they got more flight attendants to retire in that month alone, in June, of 2003 than they had in the entire history of United Airlines, more than had retired or died in the entire history. Of United Airlines. Three months later, the CFO came back and said, Oh, we made a financial mistake. We're gonna have to change retiree healthcare now, after these people had already retired, we were like, F No, oh, that's and so we fought it. We fought it and and we so I had this group of retirees in the office, and they were asking that they're like, how do they sleep at night? And I said, You know what? We're gonna go ask the CEO. And we went on a little road trip over to world headquarters, and we went in like we were going to the employee credit union, and then went up the stairs to the CEO's office, and right then a fire alarm was pulled. I don't know how that happened, but you know everybody, it was very strange that that happened right then, and everyone left the building. And so the CEO was alone in his office with explaining to these six retirees who had serious medical conditions why he was going to take away their medical coverage. So anyway, he finally got some help and got, you know, them going out of the office. And I turned around to look at him. He was a very short man, so I could look at him directly in the eyes. And I turned around and I said, we're not done. And he say, and he and he said, he said, you know, Sarah, I get letters all the time saying I'm doing the right thing because I'm saving the company. And I said, Well, that's the difference between you and me. I'm not gonna say his name. That's the difference between you and me. I live in a democracy, and the majority of people are with me and think that you are being a greedy bastard and you are a dictator. So you can go ahead and say that, but the people are with me and so so much. But we need to understand they sleep just fine on silk sheets.

Andrew: 27:43

Yeah, they sure do. Yes. So disturbing. I know it's my turn. It's my turn to ask you a question. I'm just super angry at the moment. I know now I want to go find a CEO for life. Let's go.

Sara Nelson: 27:58

There's new issues all the time I see going forward too. We never had to bargain on staffing before because the airlines used to compete on service, and they don't compete on service anymore. They compete. In fact, this is something that I would like passengers to know.

Andrew: 28:13

That's literally my question. Go and Emma's gonna ask, what's one thing you wish passengers knew about the work that we're doing.

Sara Nelson: 28:23

Okay? So passengers should know that it's very different business today, that they have put the seats closer together, that this is our work. Our workspace is your travel space. We hate it. That means there's more of you, less of us. They've cut it down to FAA minimums everywhere for staffing, which means that we're handling more passengers than ever before in a cramped space with fewer tools, less food on board, less entertainment, less you know, everybody is supposed to bring on their own stuff now, and that means stuff everywhere too.

Andrew: 28:56

They've taken out bulkheads, they've put seats in galleys. They put jump seats on lab doors,

Sara Nelson: 29:00

yes, and so we never used to have to bargain on staffing, but we're gonna have to bargain on staffing Absolutely. I mean, it's just not reasonable, right, that you would staff some of these airplanes as low as they do. And you know? I mean, we don't ever say it's unsafe, but it is certainly less safe with fewer flight attendants on board and more passengers than we have ever had to deal with absolutely anyway, that's what I want passengers to know, is that we really want to help you. We really want to take care of you. I used to welcome people on board, and I take credit for saving many marriages, because you'd get people who come on after a bad business deal, or they came from a funeral, you know, they're just upset about something, or they didn't like being patted down at security or whatever it is. And they get to you have the time to interface with them. We don't have time to interface with people anymore. And I know that there were people who came on grumpy and left smiling, and they didn't go home and metaphorically kick the dog or whatever. You know, I assume that probably made it better for the people that they were going home to, but we don't have that anymore. You know, the industry has changed a lot, and we still get to interface with people, but not like we used to,

Andrew: 30:10

right? No, not at all. Yeah, 100% correct.

Sara Nelson: 30:13

We're as frustrated as those passengers are every day.

Andrew: 30:18

Well, so we know what you want passengers to know? What would you like flight attendants. Know about the work that you are doing for flight attendants, sure?

Sara Nelson: 30:26

What are we working on? Okay, so a couple things. First of all, I have learned over the course of doing this job that I cannot do what flight attendants want me to do without coordinating with other unions and, you know, promoting organizing wherever we can, because what I see is the big issues that people care about, you know, our retirement security, our health care, whether or not we can have a living wage and be in a home that is near where we work. Nobody can afford to live where they work, right? And that's not just flight attendants. There's other people who have to commute three and four hours to their jobs, and they're doing that. You know, surface transportation, if it's available anyway, these big issues are things that we can't take on alone in our contracts. We have to build power as working people to bring the politics to us right. And on that note, we are a non partisan organization. It's really about building that working people power to make whatever party is in charge come to us and come to our ideas and our agenda. And on that note, what I would just say is a lot of people think of me as their own personal union rep, and that's very sweet, but also really scary, because there's 55,000 and I can't absolutely so my job is to interface with all things in Washington, right? And then also to oversee, like the bargaining in general, and to and to interface with other unions and to build power generally for flight attendants, and also to be the spokesperson for our careers. You know, that's that's my job. We have a very Democratic Union, and each flight attendant group at each different airline really gets to decide what their bargaining priorities are, how they're going to move forward, how they're going to communicate all of those things. Sometimes that's frustrating to me, because I like everything to be, you know, just so but, but, you know, it is democratic, and in the union is in the hands of the members, and there's probably some things that members get frustrated about that I'm frustrated too. That's what I'd like them to know, and that together, we can, you know, everybody has a different opinion. Everybody has a different approach. I actually think that our different opinions and our different experiences make us better, because when you bring all of those things to the table, and you hear everyone's voices, whether they're in on something or they're out on something, whatever it's gonna it's gonna come up with a different, a better resolution, because at the end of the day, we all essentially want the same thing. We want to be able to make enough money to live we want to be able to have a home. We want to want to be able to have a trajectory in life where things can get better. We want to take care of the people that we love. You know, it's, it's, it's all really the same. We have so much more in common than anything that divides us, and we just have to keep working on that and know that it's within our union of flight attendants, but also that that extends to every other working person in the country and around the world. Yeah,

Andrew: 33:16

yeah. That's one thing that I always find interesting, is flight attendants love to say, well, where's the union? What is the union doing? And I'm always fascinated by that, because I'm like, Well, have you talked to, you know, so and so? Have you talked to your base president? Have you talked to your local council rep, or have you gone to the hotel committee or the safety committee, or whoever the person is responsible for this issue? And they're like, Well, no, they should just be doing this, and I'm like, we're the union. We're all part of the Union. And it's like, if you don't use your voice and communicate with these people and work as a team with these union leaders that they don't, they can't read your mind, they don't know what's going on. So I always encourage people to get involved, be part of the Union. You are the union. Yeah. Also,

Sara Nelson: 34:00

there is a basic formula to getting change or to getting results, or to, you know, making solving problems right. First, you have to define the problem. So hello, we're in a mobile workplace, and unless it's on the evening news, if we don't report it, it didn't happen, right? And so we have to report when things go wrong, or you have a gripe, or whatever, you have to set your demands. And I always say that's really easy. Just ask people, What do you want, right? It's pretty clear. Anyway, set your clear demands together as a group, right? And then you have to back up your demands with what you're willing to do to get it. That's very frustrating under their RLA, because the government gives us the right to strike or not, right? So people get really frustrated with that definitely, or flight attends. We can be creative, and we can use creative tactics also. We can be loud. We can be loud if we are together. Think, think about this. I tell people this all the time in mobilization training, I say, you know, the company is afraid when we're all acting together, right? It doesn't matter if it's a strike, if we say, Talk Like a Pirate Day, and they get reports that every single flight time across the industry is hard.

Unknown: 35:08

When are we doing that?

Sara Nelson: 35:10

Terrifying? Because we're all doing the same thing together totally. You know, there's a lot that we can do when we're when we're united and working together, and building our organizing structures over and over again and going through that basic, you know, formula of resolving issues, and I add, and I need to add the last one that's really important urgency, you know, we need, you need to add the element of urgency to get things done. Yeah,

Andrew: 35:35

so true. So looking back on your career and how far you've come from, you know, working with new hires as a new hire, and, you know, up until this point, did you ever think back then, like your voice would echo in Congress, on national media, on, you know, as big of platforms as as you're on, like the two guys on a plane podcast is one example. I.

Unknown: 36:01

Yeah, one example, one of the more glamorous ones,

Andrew: 36:05

top tier right here,

Sara Nelson: 36:07

yes, yes. Actually, one of my favorites, if I can just be honest, we

Andrew: 36:12

like your Yeah, we like it.

Sara Nelson: 36:16

You know, no, absolutely not every single job that I've ever done in this union has been because someone has asked me to do it, including President of the Union, and I've had to make the decision. Obviously, it's not like somebody did it that for me. But no, I never pictured this, not in a million years. In fact, I'm in DC. What's really funny is, I grew up in, you know, Corvallis, Oregon. I had two younger brothers. My closest brother really wanted to always be in politics. I just remember thinking, you know, like, I don't want to have anything to do with any of that, right? No, I did not ever imagine this. I thought maybe I would be a teacher, and I would have some sort of influence over a lot of kids lives, and I hoped that I would be able to help people that way. But no, I never imagined this. Never

Andrew: 37:01

going back to the other the last question you were talking about building power, and I think that's one of the things that you're currently known for, is your vision within our union, you know, not just combining the aviation unions such as TW and APFA and AFA. We're all working together more than we ever have you are also we love to see, yeah, truly love to see stuff. It is, but you're also known for all of just combining unions, period, Starbucks. I mean, you're very heavily involved in that. And Amazon and the building of the power is so important. So why is it important to you, other than the power aspect.

Sara Nelson: 37:44

Yeah. So a couple things about this. I mean, when I first started flying, one of the biggest problems that we had was getting flight attendants to understand their own worth. And we did a lot of work on, you know, people have Yes, we have been objectified. We have been sexualized. We have been we have been sexually harassed and assaulted throughout our careers. We have been cast aside. We have been treated as we don't matter, the girls in the back all of that, and we really had to carve out our space as aviation's first responders and as people who should be respected, both in terms of the public sphere, but also at the bargaining table. So when I look at something like Starbucks, like the Starbucks campaign, and they asked me to come on their their second ever organizing call with that first store in Buffalo, it's amazing. Yeah. And I was like, Listen, you could change the world. You can you can light a fire here. And they did, and I'm so, so proud of them, but I also relate to it so much, because, you know, being a barista, you can see a lot of similarities about how people think about the work and how valuable that work is. Who, besides flight attendants and baristas, are interfacing with the community all the time and can really make a difference in people's lives, and they talk about it as like a throwaway college job. You know what? All work has dignity. I had a CEO say to me, Sarah, really, how much can you pay someone to put lettuce on a plate? Well, I'll tell you what, if we don't get our catering, what kind of flight are we gonna have? Like, it doesn't work. Every single thing that people do, what do they think when they go to their boardroom and they're served lunch by the people who come in, and what do they think about the people who go through that boardroom at night and clean up their mess? Would they like to come back to a messy room the next day? You know, it's every single person plays a role, and no job is any less important than the other. Okay, yeah, maybe you go to school, maybe, you know, you have credentials that that get you a little more money, whatever. But this idea that some jobs are disposable, or even that people are disposable, is just not okay. And so I, I think it's really important to stand like, you know, standing with the auto workers, standing with Starbucks baristas, standing with the Amazon workers. We have to stand with all of labor, because this is this. Well, Mother Jones was a labor organizer around the turn of the century and the 20th century, and she was traveling around the country fighting child labor. And she has this famous quote that I always use, she said, the capitalists say there is no need of labor organizing, except the fact that they themselves are continually organizing shows us their real beliefs. The capitalists want the most amount of labor for the least amount of money, and Labor wants the most amount of money for the least amount of labor. She says, labor generates all of the wealth in this country and builds the world's palaces, but neither dwells in those palaces nor spends that wealth. If you would only understand that you hold the whole solution in the palm of your hand. If, for example, every worker in America were to simply hold up and stop working, the capitalists would yield to any and all demand. Because the world could simply not go on. And when she says that, she's essentially describing a general strike, but what she's really doing is telling people, telling workers everywhere, you have power just by putting your hands in your pocket and refusing to allow them to exploit us. Now we have to do it together. You can't do it by yourself. So we have to figure out how to get along with each other, how to define our demands together, how to know what we're fighting for together. But we have that power. And a lot of times I hear the phrase the rich and powerful. That is a ruse. That is like the emperor has no clothes. Okay? Once you see it, you can't unsee it. They do not have power. They have money and they have control. We have the power. If we wake up to that power, we can do anything. We can take them on. We can make them have to negotiate with us. That's what we did during the pandemic. And we got $54, billion in payroll support directly to workers. It was the first workers, first program I had ever seen in the government. And it kept not only our airlines afloat, but it kept everyone in their jobs, getting connected to our healthcare, continuing to get our retirement contributions, staying with our credentials and being able to start up the industry again. The first ever workers, first program, and it was because we understood that we had the power to make them negotiate with us before we even went to Congress, and we got them to agree at the same time, because we had power in that moment to cap their pay and ban stock buybacks and dividends. And that stayed in place even after the relief period ended. Now the second that rose, they lifted their pay and all of that, but it's a good lesson, because the airline industry was the only industry in America not to grow in inequality during the pandemic, and that's because of our unions and working people setting the agenda.

Andrew: 42:55

Yeah, that's powerful. And I think you brought up such a good point about power versus control, and I think there's such an important distinction there that a lot of people don't realize, you know, sure, they have a lot of control over things, because they're, you know, the big guns, and they're making these decisions on behalf of working class people. But we have the power. What

Sara Nelson: 43:15

we have to understand is that, yes, they have power, but it's only because we give it to them. If we stop giving it to them, they really don't. The power resides with us.

Unknown: 43:25

Yeah, I love that.

Andrew: 43:29

I'm public for words over here, I'm sorry. I'm so star struck. Can you be my personal neighbor every day, this podcast episode will become my own personal motivation whenever I'm down.

Sara Nelson: 43:42

No, but it's exciting. No, it is what we can do. When we come together. It doesn't happen overnight. We have a lot of work to do, but, but we can do

Andrew: 43:48

it. And also, we're seeing industry leading contracts come out of like, almost every carrier at this point, like, clearly, not just PSP, awesome. I mean,

Sara Nelson: 43:58

yeah, we're that keep things in place and slide back

Andrew: 44:01

Right, right, right, but we've seen so many tragedies happen where we've moved backwards and we came out of covid, and we're still seeing industry leading contracts being negotiated like that's just proof, more, further proof of the power that we actually have created and are wielding in

Sara Nelson: 44:16

this yes area. And this is one thing that's really important for us to know, is that the last 20 years have not been regular bargaining. Years. You had the bankruptcies. Even if your carrier wasn't going through bankruptcy, you probably were not negotiating improvements, right and and so there was a time of concessions and austerity, and that moved into the mergers where they figured out how to pit workers against each other so that we didn't fully use our power in the mergers like we should have to get what we really deserved in those mergers. Also, those merger negotiations were not under the Railway Labor Act. They weren't regular section six bargaining. We are now this this round of bargaining is the first time that we're getting back to regular bargaining, and we need that pattern bargaining so that each contract builds upon the other so we keep building up the careers. You know, every single one should do just a little bit better and a little bit better. I think that there's a lot of people who feel really demoralized and upset because negotiations have gone on for three and four years. That is not what people need to know. Is that is not normal, okay? And it doesn't have to be that way. And we're resetting now with this round of bargaining. We're not done with everybody yet, but we're resetting now, and we should set a regular pace for bargaining, and bargaining should not take more than 12 to 18 months. That's as long as it should take. We can be strategic in doing that, and people have to know that the last 20 years were it's not normal, it's just not wild. And don't accept it as reality, correct? That is not reality.

Andrew: 45:47

Yes. And also remember that the people that are at the bargaining table, that the union reps that are at the bargaining table, we are riding the jump seat with you. We're not just going in there and accepting whatever's coming out, out at us. It's not like, it's not like their team said we we only have this. Yes, and we accepted that we're riding the jump seat with you. We want better for ourselves too, exactly. And if they wanted to give it to us, they would have, if they want to create better schedules, they would make them sorry, I'm so boxing it. If they wanted to give us better schedules, they would have already, if they wanted to give us more money, they would have already, like, it's not, but never. Was not your union who's going in there and just saying, I'll take whatever you can get. And we're fighting like, lighting,

Sara Nelson: 46:23

let's we always vote down the first offer. It's not a freaking offer. We told them no sometimes before it comes out

Andrew: 46:33

in a tear, gonna say, oh, never mind, here's more money. I don't think it's a secret that we're Unionists. I don't think it's a secret that I'm a union rep. I've sat at that negotiation table. I know what happens, and I'm I'm so thankful that you as a leader, are like, we're not accepting. We're not signing five year deals anymore. We're not signing, you know, well,

Sara Nelson: 46:51

we might sign five year deals, but there better be a year early opener so we can get back to the table right that

Andrew: 46:56

part, but to move negotiations into a place where we're not living through one to two contracts per our career, because that five year contract took five years to negotiate, and now you're living under this contract for 15 years. And

Sara Nelson: 47:09

that is not that. That is just not normal. No one should accept that. No one should assume that that's normal. And the other thing that I just want to make clear, though, Andrew, is it's really important that we have actual flight attendants at the table, not not every union has the workers at the table. We're there, but we're there alongside attorneys and economists and all these professionals who help us and assist us. And I think that's

Andrew: 47:31

what it's important. I think that's why we wanted to highlight that you are a flight attendant. Because every single person in the AFA leadership, we are all flight attendants. Yes, we're working with lawyers and things like that. But even our international president, international vice president, international secretary, everyone from the person doing the new hire presentation to you, we're all flight attendants. That's right, we're all sitting jump seats. We're all riding the same trips that you're complaining to us about. Yes,

Sara Nelson: 48:01

and by the way, flight attends are amazing people, because a lot of times they have other skills, like, they're really good at data, or they're really good at computer programming, or they're really good at communications, or they were previously a nurse or a doctor or a lawyer, you know. So yeah, we have all these skills among our ranks that we can pull out. And if people bring their skills to the Union, and everybody pitches in a little bit just like, I mean, we're an incredible group, an incredible group, and there's so much potential there. Yes, to do even more, 100

Andrew: 48:30

I 100% agree with you. Okay, so I'm gonna try to get us back on track now, and I'm off my soapbox. Sorry, everyone. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be done ranting. Here are lots of soap box one win that you're most proud of during your time as AFA president.

Sara Nelson: 48:44

So I mean, obviously getting $54 billion from the US government was a big win, but like I said, that was just so that we didn't go backwards. So I mean, I can't pass over the payroll support program that we fought for and with that we designed, fought for, negotiated with the companies and then one with Congress. It was really, really hard work. People, yeah, really, really hard work, but, but, I mean, I just, I just can't, even though this is so huge, I can't take it in as a big win, because it was about not going backwards, right? And so for me, really, it was the fight for 10 hours rest. It was an epic battle that had been going on for so long and and it's not enough. We can continue to build on that too. But what it took to change that minimum rest from really, they say nine, but really they could reduce to eight. So it was really eight right to change it to 10 hours and have that be the minimum in the law and in the regulations, not just in a contract you know, raised the bar for everyone across the industry, and every single flight attendant was involved in that. It was a very clear demand. We had so many actions. We had we had members of Congress who were like, Fine, I'll sign up, because they got 1000s and 1000s of calls, and we had met quiet

Andrew: 50:00

people. Even, what happens when you mess with 55,000 people.

Sara Nelson: 50:04

And we had, and we had members of Congress who signed up for it because they got one call from a flight attendant. Like, I was talking to this member of Congress, and he's like, I haven't heard from anyone, and we were dialing for dollars, and what we found out was there was only two flight attendants in his district, and we got one of them to call him, and he's like, Okay, I've heard from a constituent I will sign on. So people just need to know, like, every single voice matters, really matters. And that was an epic battle where, at the end, at the very I'm gonna tell you the very end. Okay, so we had been supporting the minors in their fight to preserve pensions and healthcare that not only was negotiated in their contracts, but that our country committed to them because miners powered this country. I mean, it was coal that used to power a lot of us were born in hospitals that were warmed and lit because of the work that miners did underground. And so we fought to keep their health care and pensions. And so then at the end of this battle. Bill. Schuster, who was the chair of the transportation infrastructure committee, was a Republican. He was like with a foray, you know, Airlines for America, they didn't want to give us the 10 hours. So he was fighting against it, even though we did have Republicans who were leading in the house for it. And he said, we can't put it in the bill, because we don't have one Senate Republican on this bill. And I happened to be in the car with Cecil Roberts, who is the president of the United Mine Workers of America. And I said, Cecil, call Shelley Moore Capito and who's your Republican senator in West Virginia. I know you know her. And he called right there from the car, and he told her, he said, Senator Sarah Nelson was pivotal to making sure that we would save our health care and pensions, which affects all of your constituents in West Virginia, we need you to do this one thing. She made a call right there and then, and that was the final thing on the table at the 2018 FAA reauthorization bill and all of the work that we had done, all those calls, all those actions, all the surveys, fatigue surveys and everything. It all came down to that one relationship that we had built where we came out for another union, and they were coming out for us, and they had a reason to say to the senator, no, this isn't just an ask from us. This is somebody who fought for your people too, and so you need to do it for them. She made a call, and that's how we won our 10 hours.

Andrew: 52:19

That is why all unions are important. That is incredible. Yeah, incredible story. True solidarity, everybody working together to make that happen. Yes, amazing. Yes. Well, one last question we have for you, and this is kind of perfect, since you got your union start working with new hires, what is one thing? If you could speak to every single new hire flight attendant individually, what is one thing you would say to them, either piece of advice or just kind of thoughts about the job? What would you say to every new hire?

Sara Nelson: 52:50

So obviously, I think we all have a lot of things. We would tell new hires, 1000 things, right? But the one thing that I would tell them is put on your AFA pin because or your union pin. If you're not in AFA, put on your union pin. And if you're at Delta or sky West, put on your AFA pin. We're organizing there, because what that tells management is that you know that you have rights, and you know who to call to use them. And my experience is that the second that I put on that union pin, those managers did not mess with me through the rest of my probation. There's real power in numbers, and they know that when they see you with that union pin on, that you really get it, that you get that you're not standing alone. And that union pin transcends the wings that we wear, or the color the tail the airplane, it's it's about flight attendants everywhere. So when I see someone else wearing a an AFA pin, like, if you want to be a part of this career, put on that union pin, because it doesn't matter the uniform that they're wearing. When I see that union pin, it means I care about you. I've got your back, and that means a lot to me. So when I walk through the terminal and I see that, that's what I feel, and that's what I want everyone to feel, so that's the advice I would give them. I

Andrew: 54:15

love that, and I'm sorry that I'm not wearing my union pin today. Now I'm ashamed of myself. I will say it's pinned on every uniform Garmin I have, and I've got them on every bag and lanyard. But I did not come prepared today. I was gonna say, I promise, when he's in uniform, he's pinned always, always multiple pins on,

Sara Nelson: 54:34

you know what? You know what? Also, actually, you know members of Congress write on our planes, and they know what that union pin looks like because when you come to their they know what it means. And so when they see the flight attendants wearing the union pins, that reinforces for them that what the union was asking for, these are the people who care about it. So you without even saying anything, you're telling them, make sure that we have proper rest, make sure that we have proper safety, make sure that we have, you know, training to defend ourselves. Make sure that we have a living wage, and so it's really important. Yeah,

Andrew: 55:06

thank you saying. All right, we are going to close out now, and anytime we have a guest, we do a lightning round. So we're just going to ask you a series, real quick question. First thing that pops to your head? No, not really. It's not hard. I promise. We're not asking tough questions. I promise. Okay, so I'll start the round off if you're on an airplane, window or aisle, oh window, Airbus or Boeing, Boeing hotel or Airbnb. Oh, hotel. Favorite layover city.

Sara Nelson: 55:41

Favorite layover city. This one is so hard for me. I'm sorry. I just have to say, Honolulu, you

Andrew: 55:47

don't have to be sorry for that. Honolulu is a great choice. Favorite airport.

Sara Nelson: 55:53

Oh, I, I'm, I'm just so I'm just so true to my school, Boston, Logan. Oh,

Andrew: 56:00

that's my hometown. Emerald so I love it. Least favorite

Sara Nelson: 56:04

Atlanta. Oh, don't have to think, because everyone

Andrew: 56:10

go to snack while flying.

Sara Nelson: 56:13

Go to snack while flying is, oh, my god, lately, it's seaweed. I hope I'm not cursing people out. But you know, the crunchy seaweed is so yummy.

Andrew: 56:21

I'm not the only one that eats gross, smelly snacks on airplanes. So can eat seaweed, I can eat beef jerky,

Sara Nelson: 56:28

but please nobody bring tuna. Thank you very much. And keep you on

Andrew: 56:33

favorite song on your travel playlist right now,

Sara Nelson: 56:37

oh my gosh, it's like, fight and win, fight and lose. I don't know it's from like

Andrew: 56:42

it is that would be your song, no, but that would be a song you would be listening

Sara Nelson: 56:46

to. It was in, like, one of the last episodes of Ted lasso, and I just let you have it on. I love that. And it just reminds me of Mother Jones saying, You will fight and win, fight and lose, but you must fight and so stay in the fight.

Andrew: 56:58

Yeah, one item that's always in your carry on a

Unknown: 57:02

bottle of water.

Andrew: 57:04

Yeah, Hydration is key. It's the most important thing

Unknown: 57:07

on the airplane. It is key.

Andrew: 57:08

Last question, one place you've always wanted to visit that you haven't been to yet.

Sara Nelson: 57:15

I have not. Okay, so this is really kind of funny, because I had never been to Rome. I had never been to Italy, and I always wanted to go to Italy, and I still want to explore Italy. And I haven't. I got it in my head that it like had to be this big, romantic trip, and so I put it off, and never went there and everything. And I still haven't been, because the pope invited me to the Vatican, and I only went to the Vatican. I didn't go anywhere else, and so, which was an incredible experience. But yes, I want to explore all over Italy, really,

Andrew: 57:45

so many good places there to go. Such a great choice. And I thought I was going to gain 10 pounds from all of the like pasta that I was eating while I was there. It's so much better and healthier for you, eat everything. Don't be afraid to eat but eat everything.

Sara Nelson: 57:59

And you're also walking out, walking Yes, yes. You know things that Americans

Andrew: 58:04

don't do, yeah? But when you're eating lasagna for like, breakfast, lunch and dinner, yeah, start to worry about Yeah, vacation mode. Okay. Also, there are places in Italy that will give you, they'll give you a bowl of walking pasta. I didn't know this was a thing. It was fantastic. Do it all. Do it all. Oh, my God, is as romantic as you've been dreaming it up. It really is as romantic. But also they give you walking pasta, Sarah, we can't thank you enough for coming today. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. This has been so fun. Thank you guys so much for listening and tuning in. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Sarah Nelson today. Do you want to plug AFA? Where to follow you? Where

Sara Nelson: 58:49

you can well, you can follow me on most channels, at flying with Sarah, but AFA, afacwa.org, and, you know, find all the latest stuff. We're in the middle of doing a website redesign, so that'll be out soon. And yeah, stay in touch. Go follow

Andrew: 59:06

AFA. Go follow Sarah and go find you a union pin. That's right. And if you haven't already, please join our subscriber community on Patreon. This supports us and supports our show and helps us keep going. So go to patreon.com/two. Guys on a plane. We have behind the scenes, footage, bloopers, exclusive content and all sorts of fun stuff for you. And

Sara Nelson: 59:27

who doesn't want to hang out and be with and work with two guys on a plane?

Andrew: 59:31

I could name a few people. Well, friends join us next time for more humor, heart and stories from our beverage cart. This episode was brought to you by staff traveler, the number one non rev app if you travel on standby tickets and are looking to make your journey easy and stress free, check out the staff traveler app in the Apple App Store or Google Play Store. Visit staff traveler.com/two guys to learn more and sign up

Buzz Burbank: 59:57

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