From Combat Boots to Cabin Crew with Keturah Johnson

In this special Veterans Day episode, we sit down with the incomparable Keturah Johnson—combat veteran, flight attendant, and International Vice President of AFA-CWA. As the first queer woman of color and veteran elected to serve in this powerful union role, Keturah shares her extraordinary journey from the tarmac to the battlefield to the picket lines. She opens up about her military service during “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” her fierce advocacy for trans rights, and the fight for visibility and equity in aviation.

This conversation is full of heart, truth, and power. We dive into what it means to wear the uniform—both in the military and in the skies—as a queer person of color, and how union activism is helping change the future of the flight attendant profession. Keturah brings receipts, realness, and the kind of candid insight that will leave you inspired (and maybe a little fired up). You don't want to miss this one.

Episode Highlights:

[0:21] Introducing Keturah Johnson and why she’s the perfect Veterans Day guest
 [1:20] That time Keturah met Joe Biden at the airport—aviators and all
 [2:42] From catering planes to the National Guard—Keturah’s journey into the military
 [5:00] Deployed to Afghanistan: surviving combat under “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
 [7:04] “Don’t clap for veterans—vote for them.” Keturah gets real about systemic neglect
 [10:57] Growing up in Kenya and how that shaped her global worldview
 [13:20] Losing her locks in the military and reclaiming identity through union activism
 [21:57] Fighting for uniform choice and pushing back from day one
 [24:22] Union leadership 101—stepping into power and demanding representation
 [27:44] Why diverse leadership matters and the power of being unapologetically visible
 [30:50] The importance of visibility through pins, pronouns, and showing up
 [32:47] Becoming the first queer woman of color elected to high AFA office
 [35:06] Dealing with respect and disrespect—how Keturah keeps going
 [38:24] Speaking up at work: real advice for taking action and using your voice
 [41:07] Building union power and the HRE committee’s biggest wins
 [44:43] Advice to new flight attendants: wear your pin and speak up
 [45:15] Keturah’s go-off moment—protect trans folks, respect veterans, and support wo

Transcript

Rich: 0:02

Ever wondered what your flight attendants are really talking about behind the galley curtain?

Andrew: 0:06

Welcome to Two guys on a plane. Your go to podcast for an insider look at flight attendant life.

Rich: 0:11

We're your hosts, rich and Drew, and we're here to tell you what really goes on at 35,000 feet.

Andrew: 0:16

So sit back, relax. We're ready for takeoff.

Rich: 0:21

All right, everybody, today is Veterans Day, and we are so excited to have a very special guest with us in studio to honor veterans day. Today's guest is katura Johnson, international, Vice President of AFA CWA. Ketura is a combat veteran, a flight attendant, a union leader and a fierce advocate for equity, inclusion and trans rights, she made history as the first queer woman of color and combat veteran elected to serve in her AFA CWA role in our conversation today, we'll explore her journey from military service to aviation and what it's like to be a queer person of color in union leadership.

Andrew: 0:57

Welcome couture, we're so excited to have you here today and to just have a great conversation with you, normally, we start off talking about our day or our week or some crazy thing that's happened to us. So we want to start with you. Tell us your like, most memorable passenger experience or some wild flight that you've had something crazy that happened to you while you were working as a flight attendant.

Kenturah Johnson: 1:20

Okay, well, there is this time that I actually met Joe Biden in the airport. I was I casual, was walking back from dropping off a friend at a gate, and I was walking and he had just come through security, and his aviators on, and he was on the carts that they no longer allow enough terminal. And I just like, I don't know why, but, like, I don't know why, but like, in a British accent, was like, Excuse me, so may I and he said, sure. He took off his aviators and, like, his staff are, like, leaned down now, now I get it out and, like, I think we took a selfie. And I was like, Holy fuck. And I'm like, my FA pin on, and like, walk to the gate. I was like, fuck yeah,

Andrew: 1:58

that's amazing. Love this. I He's here a lot, I think, or was here a lot. I mean, I forget that he lives so close to us here in Philly. He was

Kenturah Johnson: 2:06

eating at a non union restaurant the other day. Oh, call him out for it.

Rich: 2:13

Philly is a union town, correct? So you do have to call him out for that. That's an amazing story. I love this. I love that you met him. So before all of your crazy aviation adventures and stories, your career started on the ground. Well, yeah, on the ground, before aviation, you were in the military. So take us back kind of to the beginning about you know who you are, where you're from, and then how you got into military and all that before aviation, yeah.

Kenturah Johnson: 2:42

So I actually started a lot of people to know this with LSU sky chefs caterplanes. So actually, come from United here, local 274 which is Philadelphia, hotel workers and, like, I just needed, like, a change, I guess, and so I joined the military because I don't know, I needed something to do with something that, like, no one could tell you that you had to do it. Like my parents, that's the first question they asked you. Like, Didn't anyone make you come here? Like, no, you have to sign your fucking papers, right? So yes, I was like, a thing that I could do for myself. And so, like, I went through the military, I didn't know, like, why really I wanted to do it, but it was like something that I could challenge myself. And then after that, I started working at the airport. I remember that I wanted to be able to fly and travel. So I grew up overseas in Kenya for 17 years. A lot of people don't know this. I was adopted, actually, in Maryland, well, in Pennsylvania, but, like, adopted. My parents are doctors and missionaries, and so they felt it was God's call, uprooted us, moved us to Kenya. And so, like, that's where I, like, got my love of travel from. And so when I moved back to the States, I always knew that I always knew that I wanted to be able to travel and, like, not pay for it, right? So I always try to get into the airline industry. However I could the best perk. And so I ended up like LSU sky chefs to get in. And then I started working as a ramp agent. And then as a ramp agent, I feel getting older now. Oh my gosh, the timeline is getting fun. I Oh, but then there was some military stuff. I was in the National Guard, so like, one week in a month, two weeks in the summertime. And then while I was at Drexel, going to school, I got out of the military, okay? And then that's when, like, my aviation started taking off.

Rich: 4:19

Okay, amazing. What inspired you or motivated you to join the military in the first place?

Kenturah Johnson: 4:26

I don't know. I just was like, why not? My parents were still back in Kenya, okay, at the time. I don't know. I grew up overseas in Kenya, so, like, things didn't make sense back Yeah, and like, the routine, I don't know. Maybe I needed some structure, maybe some discipline.

Rich: 4:42

Yeah, you can all use a little discipline, but I got it totally understand that. What was your experience in combat like? I mean, I can't imagine anything about it. So what? What was that like for those of us who don't have any military.

Kenturah Johnson: 5:00

Or Yeah. So part of like, being in the National Guard, the joke is, like, okay, it's not when you go, it's not where you go, it's when you go. There's usually, like, right after training to be deployed, right? So I deployed to Afghanistan in 2010 and it was wild. I remember, like, being on the ground and like, oh, people are really actively trying to kill you. And then I was there under, don't ask, don't tell. And I was actually boots on the ground when it was repealed. So I remember, like, I bought a bunch of rainbow flags and patches for all the gays. Yeah, I knew that were gay, and so I don't know it's crazy to fight in a war that you're like, What the fuck are we doing here? It's crazy to watch your friends get fucking killed over bullshit. It's crazy to watch, like families, like, lose loved ones. Yeah, it's just, it's fucked up. I mean, looking back now and knowing what's going on in the world, I even said to someone, if I was still in the military right now, oh my god, I would be, like, revolting from within. Like I would be, yeah, we'd be unionizing. Well,

Rich: 5:59

that's what's crazy for sure, like, we all thought it was fucked up. Then, you know, it's like, now we look at where we are today, and it's like, 1000 times more intense and more insane, yeah, and

Andrew: 6:09

particularly with all the progress we had made and celebrations we were doing, you're talking about, don't ask, don't tell, being repealed. Like, I had to be freeing to, like, Finally, be able to be yourself and represent your version of America in the army, right? Yes. And now we're even taking that away. Basically, I mean,

Kenturah Johnson: 6:27

no, they are. It's, they're getting trans right on our human rights and equity call. We just had a presentation talking about, like, the strip of veterans rights and, like, the ban on trans rights and things like that. And how it's like this, just like, the reveal just happened. Like, this is, like, it pretty recent history, very, very recent history to, like, have to go back. So, like, Yeah, it's crazy that, like, I fought for our country, and like, people can't see me. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's fucking, it's, it's crazy. That's why I always tell people, like, Don't clap for veterans. Vote for veterans. Like, fucking Marc veterans, yeah, there you go. Like, stop fucking just clapping for us,

Rich: 7:04

right? Like, back up your this thought of, okay, we support veterans. Like, back that up with something with your actions, rather than just your words. Fucking over absolutely 100% 2025, we're done. We've moved on. If you're not showing up and doing something about it, shut up exactly.

Kenturah Johnson: 7:21

Yes, and use your privileges power all the time. Yeah. What can I do? There's so many things that you can do, right? You know what I mean? So,

Rich: 7:27

so I feel like back then you were probably there was some sense of pride being in the military and serving the country to some degree, right? Maybe, yeah. But now not so much. I feel like it must be really hard for people in the military now to continue serving, right?

Kenturah Johnson: 7:44

No, I mean, there's still people who actively want to serve. Like, everyone has a job. You know what? I mean, we might not agree with what the job is, but like, we should have pride in the job and be respected to do our job. And like, that's how you know trans folks in the military now, like, they're trans, they're queer, they want to be able to do their job. Yeah, married things that we want is funny, right, correct, right? And it's and it's being stripped away, and it's fucked up. And while, yes, they have a pride, some people that's their choice. Their choice is to go into the military, yeah? And so

Andrew: 8:12

because your gender identity, your sexuality, those things don't change who you are as a human and whether or not you can do the job, yeah, that you like signed up to do, and it's just wild to me that that's taken away from people who actively want to support and like, protect our country and have for so many years, and who have done it better than like so many other people that are there and with so much more integrity, and are now being told that not only they can they not do their job, but you don't get your health benefits, you don't get your retirement benefits. Like, all of that is taken away for what? For what?

Kenturah Johnson: 9:52

No, I remember when I first got in and we do our physicals and, like, I remember, like, the doctor checking to make sure that I was female. Like, that's like, Come Yes, that's the type of shit. Yes, I remember that

Andrew: 10:06

2010 was not that long ago. This should not

Rich: 10:10

it's just it's feels so cold and inhumane to treat somebody like that. You know, like to be that up close and personal, and to feel like you have the right to make those judgments or check those things on a person, like it's but,

Kenturah Johnson: 10:27

you know, it's the military, and we're the guinea pigs. And so they say, we sign up and do, like, a lot of you know, we I remember getting, like, the first, like, Anthrax sniff of, you know what I mean, like, yeah, we line us up and do that shit.

Rich: 10:41

Yeah, they made you guys test anthrax,

Kenturah Johnson: 10:44

yeah? Like, we test a lot of shit. Like, it's the military. Wow, you sign papers. And that's why I'm like, Yeah, this is fucking crazy, and that's why, like, now I say whatever the fuck I want, because I am a combat veteran, right? Yeah, whatever I've earned my right? Yeah, right, yeah. But, like, They line us up, like, Oh, we're gonna. Remember they said we're gonna try it out. This new thing came out. It was, like, the first, like, the anthrax or something, or maybe it was, I don't know, anthrax or flu or whatever. We're guinea pigs. I can't say no,

Andrew: 11:12

I'm not often speechless, but I'm like, literally, I don't, I don't even know where to go right now, yeah, like, gobsmacked.

Rich: 11:19

I mean, that's you hear stories about things. And, you know, as people who aren't in the military, we can only imagine what some of these experiences are like. And it's like, it might be worse than we thought. Everyone

Kenturah Johnson: 11:30

has a different I'm like, I was, I was in the army. I know the Marines do things differently, right? The air man or air people do think you know what I mean. Like, everyone

Rich: 11:38

does their own there is their own little culture within each branch of the military,

Kenturah Johnson: 11:42

our carriers have our own culture. You're

Rich: 11:45

not kidding about that. Did those experiences like, how looking back at it now? How did that like shape your worldview? Or like, what takeaways Do you have from that time in your life?

Kenturah Johnson: 11:58

I know growing up overseas definitely like shaped my life, of course, of seeing like, like, I went to boarding school since I was five years old, and so, like, I don't know, taking it for granted for sure, just like, little things, Yeah, I don't know.

Andrew: 12:20

Well, I'm still stuck on No, my brain is not. My brain has not caught up from you being a guinea pig in the military. This is wild to me, and I don't know how those sort of things. I mean, you mentioned it, you feel like you have a right to just be like, fuck off to everybody at this point. But there's no way that that, I mean, doesn't change your worldview. I mean, it can't your political affiliations, like all of it, it has to shape.

Kenturah Johnson: 12:49

And so I guess, like, now, like, lip service is dead. I like, my eyes are open to people who, like, say things, actions, you know, really need to be backing up people's words. You know what I mean. And like, just being more awake to like, what's going on. I remember my first hearing that I went to in DC, and I'm like, Oh, this is what's happening. This is how people are wasting our fucking time and our money. Naughty. Have no fucking idea what's going on. No idea. I was like, Oh, God, what the fuck yeah, what is happening?

Andrew: 13:23

Do you find any intersection between your military life?

Rich: 13:27

Are there any things about military life that you feel like kind of relate to being in the queer community?

Kenturah Johnson: 13:34

Yeah, I feel like there's a camaraderie like I feel like queers have and like so all of the queer people that I know in the military, like I talked to on a daily basis, like, those are my people, right? Philly, they're around. We stay in touch with each other. So, but I feel like I was always out in the military. I was in the closet because I whatever. But like I was out, I was accepted. And everybody knew. Like, everyone knew, Okay, I had to cut my hair. I had locks, and I had to cut my hair. My drill size made me cut my hair.

Andrew: 14:07

I've heard this story, and I it really is, I think you were talking about it recently at one of our board meetings, and I was literally in tears for you. Yeah, I can't imagine, like, the pain of that,

Kenturah Johnson: 14:21

yeah, I mean, hair grows back. There's a song, I am not my hair. Still,

Andrew: 14:26

you're not. But like, so much of our identity is built into like, who we choose to represent ourselves as, like, that's hair, that's color, that's clothes like, that's there's so many things that are built into that. And to have that piece like, forced away from you is traumatizing,

Kenturah Johnson: 14:42

yeah, for sure. And like, this is the second time growing my locks. And I remember, like, Okay, you stripped me down. And like, I'll build up in the military. But these are also things that I fight for now. Is like, people can wear whatever hair that they want. You know what I mean, like, Crown act what you know what I mean, like dressing however you want, and things like that. You know, the military, everyone has the same uniform, you know, right? And I remember American Airlines, we did for a while at Piedmont, we did for a while, and so they recently changed it. So like gate agents and like females and males are different, but before, everything was just the same, and you couldn't tell. And so it's crazy that, like you

Andrew: 15:18

Yeah, we had this conversation a while back about uniforms and like, just showing up comfortably who you are. Like, it doesn't matter if I choose to wear a full female, full male mix or match. Like the thing, I show up better and I represent my company better if I feel comfortable in my own skin, and part of that is if I want to wear a scarf, because it looks better on me and I feel better like that's not even like a queer thing. Like, just let a man wear a scarf if he wants to tie an ass off. It makes him feel better than like, choking up in a tie. Let him wear that. It does. It shouldn't matter, as long as I show up fully myself and happy and present at work like the whole uniform thing. Really troubles us, because it's still so gendered to this day. Oh, and I know we're all fighting against it. I mean, I know I am every day at my airline. I am fighting against these gender norms every day, because it doesn't matter, show up, be happy, be healthy.

Kenturah Johnson: 16:14

No, for sure, and I'm a big like, show up, however, like, how I show up is how I show up. The reason that so I wear the men's uniform at my airline. And the reason that I do that is because when we got the new collection, females had to wear scarves before you didn't have to. And I'm like, I will not wear a scarf, right? And also, like, I look fly in a tie, so

Rich: 16:39

come on, it just shouldn't be that complicated. Like, you should just be able to wear what you feel comfortable wearing, these options, and then let me decide what I feel comfortable wearing. You know, it's like

Andrew: 16:50

cardigan, it's a blazer, and it's a pair of pants. Like, how you put them together shouldn't matter.

Rich: 16:55

Shouldn't matter. Like, we have airline guidelines, uniform guidelines. We're all fine to adhere to that. We'll follow your little rules, but like you got to let us be ourselves within those guidelines, sure. So military life stopped. That did you go back to Drexel at that

Kenturah Johnson: 17:13

point? Yeah, so I know I didn't, but I used the money to go to Drexel. Gotcha, I like taking advantage of the benefits.

Rich: 17:22

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you went through, you might as well and tell your friends yeah, and then went back to airline life as a

Kenturah Johnson: 17:33

ramp agent, yeah, yeah. What was that like? It's hard work. I remember when we were hired. It's like any degree, like any elements, be prepared, you know what I mean? And like, it's cold outside, it was great. I worked on the ramp for a few years, and then on my one year anniversary of being a manager, because I became a manager, I went to the all call for diploma flight attendant. Oh, yeah, whatever. And I got hired. And then I started become, I started flying. Yeah, that's kind of how, the how it took off, nice.

Rich: 18:12

I assume you liked being a flight attendant more than being

Kenturah Johnson: 18:15

absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Rich: 18:18

They were. They work hard down there. I could, don't envy them, especially on hard weather days, yeah, the heat of the summer, the cold of the winter.

Kenturah Johnson: 18:26

But the thing about it is, like ramp agents and like ground workers, they have so much responsibility, right? People don't realize it. Like, you're responsible for the loads to make sure the loads go out correctly, and you have to make sure that the counter, we had the dashes right, and if you are in the binge, you know, I mean, like, that's a liability, yeah? And like, people understand, like, you're signing to make sure that every we're safe, as well as flight attendants. Yeah, and the people on there, and like, people don't understand

Rich: 18:51

it's a huge safety responsibility on their part. And yeah, I think people just think, you know, they throw our arm bags and that's all they do. It's kind of like our job. It's like people think we serve drinks and that's it. Like people don't see the other layers of safety and security to these roles, and

Kenturah Johnson: 19:05

just being on the tarmac and the ramp, like, there's been a lot of accidents, very unfortunate accidents, that have happened.

Andrew: 19:12

So I worked at a regional, you know this. I worked at a regional before the airline that I'm at now, and the propeller jets, the small jets, it's, it's not, I mean, it's not safe on any ramp, but like, those propellers do not make life any safer for anyone out there. No, they don't. And those cargo bins are so much smaller.

Kenturah Johnson: 19:32

Crouching down, right? I

Andrew: 19:35

don't even like carrying my own bag through an airport, let alone other people's like, 100 million pound bags that they're like, it's fine

Kenturah Johnson: 19:41

and it's not fine for everyone listening, it's not fine. It's

Andrew: 19:44

not it's not. No,

Kenturah Johnson: 19:46

you're cheap. Check your bag. Don't be cheap. You know, your credit cards allow two free bags. So, so true. Handle it. Don't do it.

Rich: 19:57

So your early days of flying, what was that like? What favorite trip memories or anything fun from flying?

Kenturah Johnson: 20:04

Oh my gosh. My early days of flying, I was based in Roanoke, Virginia. The ad said, Philly. I was in Roanoke. Funny how that works. I was in Roanoke with a crash pad with like four other people. And then I learned I could call reserve and like same Philly, you know? And I was like, Oh, what is this, this flight attendant? What is this life? It was rough. I gained a lot of weight, like the flight attendant 40, like the freshman 50, or whatever. I gained a lot of weight. Yeah, it's a real thing. Yeah, it was. I had a lot of fun.

Andrew: 20:38

Though. Were you in a crash pad with other flight attendants. Those are my favorite.

Rich: 20:44

It wasn't my favorite. Why is that your favorite?

Andrew: 20:48

Well, I was being a smarter, like, first of all, Oh, my favorite. I was like, I'm worried about you couldn't do it. Sounds like my worst nightmare. I never did it. I had a crash pad, but it was like a private room in someone else's apartment. So I couldn't I. Couldn't do it. But everyone that had those, like, flight attendant, they all have crazy stories. And I'm like, How do you do this?

Kenturah Johnson: 21:07

No, that's why. So, like, that was only temporary when I had to be there. Otherwise, I was in Philadelphia, right? I had my own apartment from when I was a manager, so, like, and then I moved on my stuff to my parents house. And then I, yeah, I just, you know, made it happen. However, I made it happen. How old were

Andrew: 21:24

you when you started flying 2008

Kenturah Johnson: 21:28

years ago? Maybe I just turned 39 so 31 Okay,

Rich: 21:32

yeah. And at that point in life, too, like, sharing a crash pad with other people, you're like, I'm too grown for this. Yeah,

Kenturah Johnson: 21:37

I was also in the military, and I had to, like, share, like, small quarters, like, I'm good, yeah, yeah.

Andrew: 21:46

I was a baby when I started, and it was still not, it was still no for me, like, fresh out of college, still couldn't do, like, that dorm life with all the flight attendants. Yeah, it was, and

Kenturah Johnson: 21:55

I was in boarding school. So, like, good.

Rich: 21:58

You have done your time.

Kenturah Johnson: 22:02

I've shared, I've shared all the

Rich: 22:04

things give me my space. Yeah, I don't blame you,

Kenturah Johnson: 22:07

no, but early flying was fine. I just, I the my very first day in training, I came correct with, like, the things in my blush, my mascara, my lipstick and some two inch heels, in fact, because you had to, because I had to, and then I, like, was like, I'm not gonna wear heels. And so they're like, Okay, you can wear flats. I pushed back right away, good. So I was in flats by like, the first day of training.

Rich: 22:32

That's good. Yeah, I'm glad you were able to win that battle, because, I mean, airlines are still so strict about certain uniform guidelines, it's crazy. Yeah, when so, I mean, I'm assuming that was part of your motivation to get started with union work. But what, when did you first start getting involved with AFA and union work? Flight Attendant wise, I know you were union in other jobs before, but yeah, specifically flight stuff.

Kenturah Johnson: 22:58

I think the first time that I really got involved was the uniforms for sure, one because how it happened. It's not supposed to happen. But there's someone who encouraged to get a few sizes bigger, because they said that we would gain weight. Oh, yeah, they knew. They knew it was coming, yeah. But also, like, you don't know my life, right? How about we not do that, right? And you're not paying for my uniform, so, but also just wanting to, like, be me, and, like, present how I wanted to present. And then I found out that one of the instructors was able to have the male uniform. And I said, Hey, how can everyone get that, right? Yeah. And so at first I had to, like, email my manager, and then they opened the website for like, a few hours. I'm like, This is ridiculous. And so fighting to make sure everyone was able to, like, choose what they wanted to but then telling everyone about it so that they could also go and be like, hey, yeah, was big.

Rich: 23:54

Because even when they do allow for these things to happen, they always make sure to add in red tape and hoops to jump through and things like that. They're not going to make it easy for you. No, they want you to really think about what you're doing and make you feel bad about it. It's like they're trying to shame people to not being

Kenturah Johnson: 24:12

themselves correct. And it's a problem. It's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. So we're fighting so that that can happen and that shouldn't happen. And like, yeah, people should be able to, like, show up how they want, as their authentic self, but be seen and respected just as that and like, they can do their job. They do their job right.

Andrew: 24:32

And throwing in a couple, like, gender neutral uniform pieces is not enough. Like, if you're listening, let people wear what they want to wear to work.

Kenturah Johnson: 24:42

Thank you. And maybe some sneakers sometimes too.

Andrew: 24:45

Oh, my God, I just ordered some sneakers for work. They're all black leather.

Rich: 24:48

I'm so excited. Have you seen some of these? Like, it's usually lower cost carriers, but like on international airlines, they have these, like, cute sporty suits with, like, the sneakers, they look good. They look comfortable.

Unknown: 25:03

Yeah. Yes, yeah, they

Rich: 25:08

look amazing. I'm like, cute. It is 2025, we need to let some of these standards go No for real. Great. So first role in AFA, what was your first?

Kenturah Johnson: 25:17

My first role was local council vice president, okay, at Piedmont councils.

Rich: 25:23

I mean, that's a pretty big deal to start right out, yeah,

Kenturah Johnson: 25:27

someone was president. They were tired. They asked, you know, and said, Yeah, I could, you know, do a little something. And then I was vice president. And then, like, then she was tired, so then I became president, and then I just ran. But also, like, saw a lot of things, like, I'm a black woman who flies for a small carrier into some small places, you know what I mean, where we're not seen and respected as we should be. And so like, letting the company know, like, Hey, we're not going to take that shit. And we also know who you hire, right?

Rich: 25:58

Are you talking specifically about, like, passengers? Co workers, passengers, all of the above.

Kenturah Johnson: 26:05

You know, it's like, we hope, and we want to be able to get along with all of our co workers. But the reality is, like, not everyone's aligned. And like, that's the reality of things right now. You know what I mean. And like, we hope that we can be aligned on issues of human fucking rights, basic human decency is real, basic love and care, looking out for one another. But it seems like some people are still a little bit discon disconnected.

Rich: 26:31

That's something that's always fascinated me about the flight attendant profession and people who aren't in this industry. I feel like make these assumptions that all flight attendants have this like grand worldview, and everyone is very open minded and accepting and loving. And I think even some of these flight attendants think that they are. They're like, it's like, that token situation where they're like, oh, I have a gay friend or whatever. Like they they don't realize what their thoughts and actions like, how they're not lining up. You know, it's like, they think they're this wonderfully open minded person, and then they say something off the cuff. And you're like, wait a minute. You just told me you were open minded and liberal and whatever, and you just said something really closed minded and hateful. And it's like, people need to I don't know. You think there would be more understanding among our colleagues than there is

Kenturah Johnson: 27:20

no that is true. And I know because, like, we represent a very diverse union, and for sure, folks from all different walks of life and representation does matter. But I also I grew up overseas in Kenya. I grew up as missionaries. I grew up with a bunch of white people around me. We first got to Kenya, I asked my parents, if we're in Africa, then why are all these white people here? So, like, I'm very familiar with, like, white savior. And so like, Yeah, but also, people don't know what they don't know, right? And so like, I've had conversations with people who don't look like me. You know what I mean to be like, Hey, what's going on, right? And I always wear, like, my bigger repellent, as I call my pens, so that people know, like, either you're seen or, like, Don't come to me with that bullshit, not today. But it is. It does suck, because with everything going on, like, we shouldn't be having to have these conversations, but like, we still have to have these conversations. And that's why I'm really thankful for like, Sarah and and Dante, because, like, we all have the same message, but we all deliver it very differently, and we all have different clientele, and we did, you know, we all have different folks who receive us. And like, Sarah lets me go off. Like, going off too, you know, like, but no, but I also think, like, that's why people respect us too, because, like, we say things, but like, it's not just for one person, it's like for everyone, yeah, we're not just talking for one group of people, right?

Rich: 28:45

Everyone? Yeah. And then you're you hit the nail on the head with the three of you delivering it differently and to different people, because different types of people are going to listen to you, different types of people are going to listen to Sarah, just different types of people are going to listen to Dante, and like, you need all of those people to be represented in order for there to be changed. Because, you know, there's always going to be space for people like Sarah, and there always needs to be space for people like you, like they those all the different types of voices need to be there in order to be heard by

Andrew: 29:15

everybody. And we work together, and we watch AFA closely. I mean, we work with AFA. I am an AFA member for life. He is correct. He is an honorary

Kenturah Johnson: 29:29

wearing his pen, if I may say today, he is because no shade. You know, I be coming to my pins.

Andrew: 29:37

I'm gonna go there in a minute. But I really, I truly applaud all three of you at the moment, because I really love that you celebrate each other's differences and the way that you all represent each other differently. Because it's not like no one's telling anyone else in the office to, like, slow down or temper yourselves. You're all hyping each other up and being like, go out there and fight the way you fight. And I, I love to see that all of you are celebrating each other's personalities right now. Nothing really makes me very happy. No,

Kenturah Johnson: 30:07

it's great. And I'd be texting Sarah, like, When can I pop off? Like, when shit like,

Rich: 30:13

I've scheduled it for these hours.

Andrew: 30:15

And truthfully, I love to see you in particular, out in these streets. Like, honestly, you are on every picket line. There is no union activism that you're not we talked with Sarah about building power, and I think she is a representation of that, but you are truly the embodiment of that. For me, because I see you on every picket line. There is no like, there is no cause that you are not ready to back or figure out how to back, or how to support somebody to get their cause where they want it to go. And I just, I'm such a fan, truthfully.

Rich: 30:50

Thank you. Yeah, adding on to that, I love it, because people, you know, our flight attendants, love to say, like, where's our union? What are they doing? And I'm like, go to couture. His Instagram. Have you seen her? She. Is out doing something right now. I promise you, she's fighting for somebody, with somebody near, somebody, about somebody, like it's happening out here right now. So, yeah, I love the visibility that you have brought to the union that I don't think we've seen before, like before this current, you know, trio of you guys, I feel like you've just brought so much visibility to the table, because

Andrew: 31:22

literally, all of you are out in the streets. I mean, Dante is out of the office more than he's ended at this point. You know what? I mean, we just, I truly love to see how much you all are out there, truly representing us. And you know, I'm gonna move backwards. You were talking about your pins. You I don't think people really don't I. I think people forget how important it is, because we all want to be represented. And I think,

Rich: 31:51

are you pulling out more pins?

Unknown: 31:52

I Yes,

Kenturah Johnson: 31:55

but they're special pins. Sorry, there's

Rich: 31:56

no shortage of pins.

Andrew: 31:57

These are my favorite. I have one on my lunch box, and I get so many questions about it all the time. And I'm like, you just don't even know. Even know. You have no idea. But anyways, I love the pins. It's not even just the AFA ones, like, I always have a rainbow one on me. I love that we have so many of the diversity pins these days because it really helps people to be seen and felt and heard. And, you know, I wear a pronoun pin on my uniform, just because people need to know they're in a safe space.

Kenturah Johnson: 32:25

And like people recognize our pen, they know our pen. Here's a quick veteran pin plug. So for those of you listening, if you're a veteran and you fly, please reach out. I have a very special veteran pin that was created for veterans. So yes, please make sure that you get your veterans pen.

Rich: 32:44

That's amazing. I

Andrew: 32:45

love that I have one because I carry them with me. I almost wore it today for that reason, because I was going to plug it. So I'm glad you

Kenturah Johnson: 32:53

have them with you for veterans only, find yours,

Andrew: 32:56

and that respectfully, is why I did not wear it, because I am not a veteran, and I did not feel like I had the right to put it on today. He knows his place, my place in the world, no, but it's not. It's not for me. I carry them to hand out to people who are veterans, but I was gonna wear one today. And then I was like, should I wear it? And I was like, I don't. I don't think this is for me. And Rich was like, it's not. Don't

Kenturah Johnson: 33:20

do it. No. Just so that everyone knows when you go online, there's a website, but, like, it's curated. So like, you tell us a little bit about yourself, and then I send a hand written card and a pen to your house. So that's amazing. It's not like, just like, it's, this is special shit. I love that. This is just like from my office, only

Rich: 33:38

speaking of your office, going, following along on your AFA journey, you were the first queer woman of color elected to any office in AFA that high, right?

Kenturah Johnson: 33:48

Yes, it's been a crazy three years, and some change. It all happened very quickly. I think I've said that this is the most respected and like disrespected I've ever, like felt in a position by, like, respected because, like, I get a lot of respect because of the position and things like that, but also disrespect, because I'm a black woman, and, like, disrespect, like, when they see, you know, Sarah, whatever, and then like, Sarah will send them back to me, and then like, they come back with their trouble to me, you know, but it's like, it's just like, but it's like, basic human, you know, it's been good. It's been tiring, it's been challenging, but it's been fucking fantastic. This is, yeah, I feel at home. I feel seen. I feel so fucking seen, but I feel honored to like, make sure that other people can be seen and respected. And like, knowing that our Union's like, making change, and people are like, know about our union, and know about like, their rights in our job, in our career.

Andrew: 34:44

You know, I think we often thank Sarah for that, but I think you have a lot to be you're a big part of this, and the fact that we are seen because you're out so many places, yeah. I mean, really working for

Kenturah Johnson: 34:57

people, yeah. I mean people I don't know. I've lived a lot of lives. And like, when people are hurting, like I feel fucking hurt, and like, in Philly, people hurt, and so like, all over right now, people are hurting. People are hurting in a way like we've never seen. Times are not good right now. They're not the best.

Rich: 35:15

No, no, they're really not. And people are really emboldened to just spew hate like they've never been emboldened before, and it's wild to watch. You talked a little bit about that with this role, like, you're respected and disrespected more than you've ever been like as a black woman in this role. Like, what? How do you cope with that? Like, what are, how do you take that in and continue doing what you're doing in

Kenturah Johnson: 35:42

face of that, yeah, like, I've lived a lot of lives, like I've done, I've seen a lot of things. Like, I'm a fucking veteran, I fucking, I was adopted and found my biological family, but on my own, like, I've done a lot of things, and so, like, what do they say? Sticks and stones? Well, whatever. But like, like, yeah, people like, I. Don't know. I just don't let it bother me. People will learn, yeah, I don't know. Might be a shitty answer, but

Rich: 36:07

no, I mean, it's a real answer. You can't let

Kenturah Johnson: 36:10

it Yeah, I can't let like, if I'm like, maybe I've learned to have tough skin. Like, yeah, I don't know. You just, you gotta let you just, I just got to keep going like, I don't have it. I can't right, I can't, right, yes,

Rich: 36:22

that's no, that's fair. I mean, you've lived 1000 lives at this point and been through so many different experiences, like you must have the toughest of skins

Andrew: 36:31

and caught on your they're gonna learn. Because I just I know you as a human, and I know you're teaching people, like I've seen you out working. And I know that you it's not just they're going to learn, because you are schooling people everywhere you go, well,

Kenturah Johnson: 36:46

they're going to learn and they're going to come Correct, correct. So I've been saying come correct or don't come at all. That's the motto, right now, like, come correct or don't come at all, right? Because what else are we doing, honestly, right?

Rich: 36:57

I like that. I do because you should, yeah, what are some things that you think we could be doing better to speak up in the workplace. I mean, you know, they give us, like trainings and modules and things, and those fall on deaf ears, like the people that should be understanding those modules don't. What do you think are some good ways to like, stop somebody in their tracks and be like, actually,

Kenturah Johnson: 37:22

I think people just need to start having conversations with each other. People are so afraid to talk because they're afraid of, like, saying the wrong thing, which is, like, I appreciate you of being cautious, but like, but then, if we're always gonna be afraid, then are we ever gonna, like, right? Get past it. Education is great, wearing things, speaking out, just saying something like, if you see some fucked up shit, speak out on it. Like, if you see some being fucking misgendered, say something like, if you you know what I mean. If you see a person of color, you know what I mean. If you see people in vulnerable situations, vulnerable people in vulnerable situation, speak up and say something. And if you can, like, like, I said, use your privileges, power. Wear a shirt, wear a pen, you know what I mean? Just like, do whatever you can.

Rich: 38:11

Yeah, that's a good point, especially with our uniforms. Like pens are one of the few ways we have to express ourselves without, you know, breaking some sort of crazy airline uniform rule. So yeah, and speaking up. I think people don't realize how important speaking up is. And like you said, people are afraid to be wrong, but you have to sometimes say the wrong thing to learn to get somewhere. Like, I mean, as a white gay man, I feel like you know you think, Oh, I'm open minded, and I know all the things about something, and then you say something in your life, and it's like, sometimes you got to learn the hard way and be like, hello, there's other perspectives. There's other world views. And I feel like there's a lot of communities within the queer community, white gay men that really just have this perspective sometimes that like they're, what'd you say, I said we can speak on Yeah, but just like that, you know that they think, Okay, well, I'm a gay man. I could never be, you know, racist or transphobic or anything like that, and or vote for Trump or Right exactly. And I think it's just you've got to address those things and talk about them when you see them in order for people to change their perspective.

Kenturah Johnson: 39:25

I mean, people don't know what they don't know, but at a certain point, if you don't fucking know what's going on, and you're not actively doing something to to, like, educate yourself, right, or fight back, then we're like, right? That's when, like,

Andrew: 39:42

100% agree, because I think that's part of the work that you're doing. Because I think that as flight attendants, we, a lot of us, come from marginalized communities, and people don't realize that we get put in unsafe situations that we didn't really ask for. Like, I can't avoid going to a certain state or that doesn't, you know, accept me as a human I think that the general population doesn't know that marginalized communities get forced to go places that there that aren't safe for them. Yeah, a lot of the time. Yeah, I

Kenturah Johnson: 40:16

feel like flight attendants within different carriers, and just like, within the union, like, are also but I think they're starting to, like, realize their power and their strength. You know, people are like, wait a second, wait a second, you getting screwed too, right? Yeah, they're gonna bring up, yeah, oh, you got trans, oh, you're a vet, yeah? And like, people are realizing that we have more in common. Yeah, and like, Wait a second.

Rich: 40:44

Well, the sad part is, as more and more people get screwed over by the situations and the government and the things that are happening in our society today, the more people are starting to be fed up with it. So, you know, there's at least some silver lining to that, where people are finally like, you know what, I'm fed up. And I'm gonna stand up with you, because this is bullshit. Like seeing people, that's one of my favorite things, is seeing people from different communities standing up for communities that are different than them, like without any real they're not getting anything out of it. They're doing it because they see what's fundamentally wrong with what's happening. For example, ice taking people out of communities, and they're standing up and they're saying things, and they're not just being innocent, you know, by or bystanders and just watching what happens like they're being active, engaged citizens. And it's those moments are giving me a little bit of hope for humanity. It's tough holding on to that little bit of hope for sure. Good god, there's no segue here. I don't know, but what are some of your proudest moments at AFA, I mean, what are some things that you've done? What are some things that you've done? What are what are you proud of over the last few years, whether personally or professionally. Like, what are some things you've done that you're just really proud of?

Kenturah Johnson: 42:08

I'm really, like, proud of our union and like, fighting and using their voices and like people who didn't know they had a voice, you know what? I mean, who didn't know they had rights within their union, who didn't know our human rights and equity committee has been doing a lot of work to make sure to make sure that like people are seen and like people think it's a gay committee, like that was so gay. Now we do more than just like gay, right? But fighting back, like the passport ban was an issue with gender markers and like we were on top of that shit, like it's our fucking livelihood. Like people forget, you know what I mean? Like, we move everyone. We move people in and out, you know, and so letting people know that, like, we have power, and like educating people about our job that people don't know, I think, has been really great. But also, just like seeing us come together through the past year, since the crash happened in January since, like, everything, I'm just like, attacks on our union, attacks personal attacks on, like, friends that we love, you know what I mean? And just like seeing people like, stand up, and like the conversation we just had about, like, how not everyone's aligned, and like seeing people be able to, like, show up for people, even if they don't understand why right now and then, like, using that to help them. I think I say sometimes, like, we got to, like, drag people, and then, like, pull them, you know, pull them as much as we can, because, like, people are tired. It's exhausting. We have to keep going, because it's like, it's never ending, right?

Rich: 43:37

Yeah, and not everybody has that privilege to just be like, it is what it is like a lot of people have to continue fighting, even when they're exhausted and don't feel like they can go on anymore. Yeah, and we all have to keep fighting with those people.

Andrew: 43:50

Yeah, for sure, I don't want to keep fan girling over here, but the HRE committee is one of my favorite things that you do. I've personally learned a lot like I kind of alluded to it earlier, but going places we don't necessarily want to go, like as a female, going into places that you're not respected, your body's not respected, like if something happens to you and you have to go to a hospital in a place where you have to make, you know, decisions like the awareness that's that that that committee has brought, even to me, about that issue, like bathrooms and airports and people just feeling safe to go to bathrooms. I mean, we did a whole campaign on finding gender neutral bathrooms in airports.

Kenturah Johnson: 44:35

Kansas City is great, by the way. Oh, are they? Oh, my gosh, yes. Okay, that's great, like, big and bold gender neutral restrooms.

Andrew: 44:44

Like, I love that, because they're generally, like, hidden inside of a gendered bathroom. You

Rich: 44:49

mentioned that because I've had a lot of Kansas City layovers this year, and I walked by them, and I have flown with so many crew members that have said something like, Well, you know, does it need to be whatever? And I was like, why does this affect you? How is this affecting you gendered in the first right, truthfully? And this, this drives us nuts anyway, when you go to, like, those restaurants or places that have two just single use bathrooms, and it's like, why is one of these female and one of these male? Why does the bathroom need to have a gender.

Kenturah Johnson: 45:21

So a lot of places are changing. They are just use whatever fucking bathroom you want. Oh, yep.

Rich: 45:26

Well, do you have any advice that you advice or words of wisdom that you would give to any, let's say, New Hire flight attendants or aspiring flight attendants for how to do this job in this crazy world that we live in, things you wish you knew when you started,

Kenturah Johnson: 45:44

ooh, definitely wear your pen. That's like a given. I remember I put mine on right after my new higher class kept that shit on ever since. Get involved in your union. If you have issues, bring them forward.

Rich: 45:58

Advocate for yourself. For. Yeah, it's the best thing you can do.

Kenturah Johnson: 46:02

Use your voice. Use your voice. Use your voice. Use your voice. Yeah.

Rich: 46:06

Well, you said, Sarah always gives you a chance to go off before we wrap up our show. Is there anything you want to go off about?

Kenturah Johnson: 46:16

I mean, there's so many things that I want to go off about, but, I mean, there are some things that I always say, which is, protect trans folks, fight and save lives, respect veterans. Philly is a union town. And also, if you did not know, also, Philly is a woman sports town and watch party. Phil watch party PHL, run by my buddy Jen Larry and her people are starting like women's sports activity. Maybe that's another way to say it. Well, I did that as well. Anyways, please go to Instagram and follow watch party PHL, or watch party PHL. Watch party PHL, for all things women's sports in Philadelphia,

Rich: 46:59

we're gonna go follow them right now and make sure we watch. So before we go, we want to play a quick round of a game that we play with all of our guests called cross checked. And we are going to give you 10 rapid fire questions. Just say the first thing that comes to your mind, are you ready? All right, window or aisle, aisle, Airbus or Boeing Embraer 145 love hotel or Airbnb. Oh, Marriott queen,

Andrew: 47:31

favorite layover city,

Kenturah Johnson: 47:32

Syracuse, New York, all right, oh, God, that all this, I'm not good at this game. Favorite airport, I bang with Philly a lot.

Andrew: 47:48

It's mine. So I get that least favorite airport, Charlotte, that's correct.

Kenturah Johnson: 47:53

God. What is going on over there?

Rich: 47:56

Go to go to snack while flying flips, but covered

Kenturah Johnson: 48:00

pretzels, not the for sure. And chewy, chewy sweethearts, favorite

Andrew: 48:06

song on your travel playlist? I don't know

Rich: 48:10

favorite song right now, currently listening to

Kenturah Johnson: 48:14

No, but are you familiar with G flip? Yes. Okay, so I met them the other night. No shit, yeah, they were in Philly. What, what? Yeah, they were, they had a, were they doing a show here? Yeah. So I went. I got to

Rich: 48:27

meet. We missed everything. G, flip, one item that's always in your carry on, pins, a of a pins, I love, love you for this

Andrew: 48:36

place you've always wanted to visit.

Kenturah Johnson: 48:40

Ooh, Montana,

Rich: 48:43

love it. Love that amazing. Well, check out Montana. I don't know, katura, we want to thank you so much for coming on the show and being here on our podcast and for supporting all things. To guys on the plane, you're amazing, and you're doing incredible work out there. So thank you for being on the show.

Andrew: 49:05

Yes, thank you so much for being here with us. We appreciate you so much and the work that you do every day and your visibility for all things flight attendant related, we appreciate you a lot.

Kenturah Johnson: 49:16

No, thank you guys for having me. It's always a blast to kick it with you all. So yeah,

Andrew: 49:23

go birds. Go birds join us next time for more humor, heart and stories from our beverage cart. This

Rich: 49:29

episode was brought to you by staff traveler, the number one non rev app if you travel on standby tickets and are looking to make your journey easy and stress free, check out the staff traveler app in the Apple App Store or Google Play Store, visit staff traveler.com/two guys to learn more and sign up

Buzz Burbank: 49:47

an ironic media production. Visit us at I R O N, I C, K, media.com, you.